Feedback on FF rules

[Blaaaaaaaah]

I guess most of you have probably read/post about the All the Rage rule.

We realise that members have discomfort with some certain rules, but not many speak up. We would like to take this opportunity and say - do NOT hesitate to do that. Do it in an acceptable manner and we will look at your feedback. We are ready for a makeover for FF anytime. Just post what you think, and we'll look into it.

I will hope that FiestaFan members will post their discomforts, dislikes, or suggestions for this forum (specifically forum rules) here in this thread. If anyone wanted to create a thread like this before but was hesitant to - here you go. We cannot guarantee an instant reply on the feedback - as some things may take longer to discuss than others - but we will try.

Currently, we have these rules in discussion:
- All the Rage: naming or no naming? Discussed.

After some more discussions about the no naming issue for All the Rage rule, we have decided that the rule shall remain the same. Naming is not allowed in this section, but there is an exception for scammers and hackers providing that you have screenshots as a proof.

However, names are to remain anonymous for threads ranting about bad in game experience, behaviours of other people in game, and so on. We have discussed about the use of screenshots for this too, but, screenshots relating to these issues can be easily misinterpreted and will potentially be unfair for the mentioned party.

The aim of this section is to let you release your anger and frustration from the game and complain about it here. This can easily be done without mentioning the person's/people's names. Naming people may help others "watch out" for themselves, but it will not truly help you if you do not understand the actual situation and circumstances.

Thank you.

Will add to the list if more suggestions come up.

Thank you.

[+Tequila+]

I had'nt said anything about this rule because I didn't no there was one till now*doesn't follow rules so well but yea. I just think this rule is a little too constrictive on whats posted there. I believe that even if names being posted there is allowed there will be no massive flames there because the moderators will continue to do a great job of keeping them down. I mean if someone is truly guilty of doing something that any member of the community can fall prey to and a person wants to stop that from happening then they should be allowed to post it here.

If this rule is admended just make it clear that there is to be no foul languaged used or intentional flamebaiting when make these kind of posts. I think the majority of the FF community will abide by those rules and those who don't are easily handled .

[Sero]

Umm, I can comply with the no swearing or bad words rule, as I simply replace one of the letters in it with an asterisk.

Such as, sh*t, b*tch, f*ck, *ss, and so on...

And there is this one thing I really haven't understood since the time I set foot here in FF, but what the f*ck is "flaming"??? Or any words being used meant in the same way as how I see that word is used...

And about the naming thing, I never knew that was restricted... Why so? IMO it would be better to take that restriction out

[Hessah]

If this rule is admended just make it clear that there is to be no foul languaged used or intentional flamebaiting when make these kind of posts. I think the majority of the FF community will abide by those rules and those who don't are easily handled .

I think the problem is what some of us define as "flamebait" is not a "flamebait" for others.

The comment that got this started was "Dont get me started on HER!" (Her being a person that was previously named).

Is that a flamebait?


Although the rules said no naming, I personally think that our FF mod only jumped in when they decided that is a flamebait, and they reminded them by using the "no naming rule".


I believe if you want to warn other players, you can post in General Discussion? (xxx said he's selling Uruga scrolls for 5s, but in fact it's Elderine Scrolls, beware!)

Maybe the no naming rules should be refined, but I really hope that it won't be taken out altogether, because that'll make All the Rage a no-restriction area, where ppl can easily start flames without any rules and restrictions.

But at the end of the day, I think we have to leave the judgements to the Mods. Rules are guidelines of how we should behave in this community, but even with rules, you have a lot of gray areas, which I believe should be left to the Mods.


EDIT: and i've always PMed the person, and ask them for names so i can look out for "suspicious people"... just a side thought...

[O-mie]

Rule: All the rage- names or no names.

I think this rule should be abolished, as it is a half-half rule.

Yes, it could open the door to flaming, or fights, etc. However, keep in mind, pretty much anything can. It is the internet, after all.

Now, with this rule, there are touchy edges. If it were to be okayed, it should be followed by the sub-rules of no flaming, no derogatory remarks directed at said person, and screenshot proof.

The screenshot proof is so that there is evidence, and not just some person going around trying to fabricate things about people just because they don't happen to like them, to try and rally support to make the person miserable.

Naturally, like everything, there are pros and cons about this.

Pros:

• You will know who to avoid. (Helps with scamming, getting gw-harassed, etc.)
• With people knowing how said person acts, said person may be inclined to stop their foul play.
• Since staff visit FF, they may see something worthy of intervention, which may result in a solution.
• People will not feel censored to a place they come to get away from dictation.

Cons:

• Could open the door to potential flames. (Can't everything? :P)
• Will 'single out' said person
• Could make a small amount more work for the mods

Now lets discuss the cons.

For the flames, really, anything could provoke them. Anybody could start them. No matter how much you try to sugar-coat things, just remember that sugar is a flammable substance, and even through this, you will instigate flames.

Singling out: Yes, the perosn doing the bad will get singled out. However, I will repeat myself- If they don't want to feel guilty or have people frown upon them for what they do, they should not do it.

Work for mods: To deal with the inevitable immature people who WILL insult and be derogative. However, a few button clicks isn't too hard to do.

--

I truly don't think having this rule abolished will open the floodgates to people flaming. Other game forums, both fansite and official, do not have this rule, and while of course the occasional problem arises, its never anything so extreme that the community declines.

Not saying everything in all the rage will be directed at a person in particular, and most people who have issues with people will prolly not even include their name, just whatt hey did, but there are cases that can become severe enough that you SHOULD mention their name, to warn others, and make them stop.

You should trust the people within your community to be mature of the subject. If they can't, then they shouldn't be posting.

Its understandable to have such a rule on the official forums, but like I said, most people come to fansites to get away from the dictative rules of the officials, so they can more openly express their opinions, and get more accurate and in-depth knowledge.

You can't really force such ideals on the community and expect all of them to be happy about it, that's kind of like..fascism right there. We all have different ideals, and ideas and opinions of how to do things, but restricting freedom of choice in such a manner is well.... nawt dat gud 2 do aktully. =P

Oh yeah kt, you should add a poll maybe?

[Enraya]

I, personally, understand the rule for no naming, but ZERO tolerance for naming is overboard D:

A fact is a fact. You can't change that. I don't see a point in trying to censoring a name when we're stating a fact. Because yes, if someone did something, and if anyone wants to discuss it, this is a pretty free forum after all. If you can't discuss a fact without having to censor at least half of it, what's the point?

But there's a fine line between fact and just rage. Somewhere in the other topic Ralath said it was hard to distinguish, and yeah it is. Extra work for mods, like Omie said. If it gets too far, people will have to be constantly reminded. But having this rule apply to everything is not that fair. If someone DID scam another person, why would you hide the name? Why would you say he/she didn't scam? Why would you not try to warn others?

Overall, I agree with Omie. Why would you want to change a fact? You can stop when it turns to flames, but why censor something that is just purely a backed up fact?

[Dynamics]

I'm a bit iffy with the idea of letting people name name's. It has its benefits but it also has a downside to it. I can kind of see why it was initially like that, but I think it does have room to evolve. In the case of people scamming, yeah I GUESS it's okay to point out who's scamming what. But to me I think it would do very little to benefit FiestaFan as a community. If we endorse ourselves as the community that will talk about people freely and openly, and specifically in a derogative way (come on, we have a forum just for ranting about people, but none for thanking?), I don't think it'd be alright. Even if it opens up freedom for people in terms of speech, it opens up a whole other can of beans (flaming, public humiliation, wrongful accusations, this sites' reputation) for very little benefit (naming names).

I think the main issue is freedom of speech. People don't like not being able to fully voice their thoughts and feelings, and removing the ability of naming someone to a crime or an issue touches on this.

What we need to consider is how significant it is to name names when you're really just ranting. Would it benefit this community much to know the names of people who do bad in Fiesta? A huge part of me says not really.

The population in Fiesta is quite large, not to mention hugely dynamic. There are a lot of people who do bad in game, and pinning names just won’t justice in terms of awareness. I always thought All the Rage was a forum that gave you freedom to rant about a person’s actions, not about a person. You might be able to say that someone did this, and you might be able to open our eyes to them a little, but what really gives perspective is knowing their crime and becoming familiar with it. For example, prevention of scams isn’t about knowing who does it, because as the community grows names and such will become redundant information. The only way to prevent scams is for the individual to understand how they work, and to think before buying. I’m sure this same rule could apply for much more. I think it best to raise awareness of bad people another way than just naming names, because in an online community that kind of information becomes irrelevant very quickly.

I also believe that when you’re ranting, naming a name won’t benefit you much at all, unless it truly makes you feel better to see the world dislike that person. If this is the case then I don’t see any real benefit in terms of solving the issue. If you want to feel better about yourself, or more confident that another person did wrong, talking to your friends is the better solution. Why would opening a public thread to bring someone else down benefit you any more than talking to your friends about it? In a thread you risk not hearing what you want to hear, with your friends you’ll hear what you want no problem. If you’re going to argue that you’re helping bringing awareness to the community about the person, I really can’t believe you there. As I argued earlier, I think it’d be insignificant because the community is too large and dynamic.

I think most people would want to name names' to publicly and openly humiliate a person. I don't think it's ethical to do that. Maybe not when the person truly and factually is a bad person, but will giving them this reputation make them feel like they should change? Not really. They'd probably be a little hurt inside, and retaliate quite angrily. They'd feel singled out and this kind of feeling will only propel the justice of their actions in their mind.

If we were to implement a system that gives you the right to pin crimes and such against people, then we would have to implement a way for people to appeal for themselves too. In effect, by naming people in all the rage, a hypothetical list will be created in people's minds. The allowance of naming people in All the Rage may not be something as obvious as actually creating a "bad people list," but it's driving towards that. If we think of it in this way, I don't think the number of people with bad names would be substantial enough. Such information could also be unreliable. People are subjective when posting, particularly in a forum made for blowing off steam. Screenshots as evidence can't be enough sometimes. Any screenshot can be taken out of context, can’t it?

This whole thing is a bit more complicated than just giving people their freedom of speech. If things were black and white in game about who did right and who did wrong, then I’d be all for allowing people to express their concern about other individuals. The problem is understanding when someone is truly and factually guilty. If people misunderstand this, then it could lead to some seriously wrong accusations for seemingly little benefit.


Edit: Just another point, it might be irrelevant, might not be.

Allowing this might change the idea of this community site as well. What if we become the fansite that people turn to get the lowdown on who's supposedly bad in the community and who isn't? It's a doubtful outcome, but a valid one too. I mean, we're fiestafan not fiestaban.

[Lilian]

what I'd like to know here is, what makes these forums such a sacred place as compared to talking ingame for example? both are publicly available. people "name names" all the time ingame (and on the officials, btw.) and to me it seems to cause no problems.

people seem to like "flaming" (god I hate that word how it's used now.) no problem ingame, or behind the flamed person's back, but they're terrified when everyone can see their real opinion?

afraid of the site's reputation? how does that work? if someone comes on to a forum and sees some person making a post about them, are they going to think "oh, damn that forum"? they are most likely going to look at the poster. as it should be. you say something, you take responsibility for it. not some mod, let alone a whole site.

to me, the whole idea of a forum is to have the convenience of passing along info or otherwise conversing with people when you cannot do it in realtime. the job of moderators in this is to keep things in order. in order means things like moving threads, closing them when requested by thread starter, and so on... not bossing the posters around.

also, I find it rather questionable that you bring up the validity of this "rule" after a person has already been banned for it. nice one.

[Ivramire]

she wasn't banned for the 'no name' rule ...

she was temp-banned for posting the same thread 16 times.

And it might be because while noone but a GM has any influence in-game, in places like this at least there is a modicum of control. There was only one rule and it seemed reasonable at the time to assume that there would be no problems with it. Of course, you then get situations like this that blow it out of the water and expose the inherent flaws that weren't so obvious before, and that's why they're reconsidering the rule and maybe editing it.

[Lilian]

she was temp-banned for posting the same thread 16 times.

yeah, my bad.

said 16 reposts were caused by the order to remove the name from the thread though, and moreso, the editing of the thread by a moderator.