Deity Existence - Page 2

**Vasu** · 11-29-2008, 05:50 AM

Don't worry Hrae, I'm gonna make my full post soon enough.

Deoial · 12-05-2008, 07:29 AM

i don't think there is such a thing as a god but i believe in a higher power that cant be explained... like karma, do good get good do bad get bad kinda thing

**Hraesvelg** · 12-05-2008, 09:06 AM

What makes you feel that way, Deoial?

irroc29 · 12-05-2008, 10:02 AM

Deoial, I believe that is referred to as agnosticism.

You should check it out ^^
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Believing in a higher power or an afterlife, but not being sure. It's kind of a personal religion because there are really no set standards or practices. It's basically claiming ignorance..

**Hraesvelg** · 12-05-2008, 03:23 PM

Agnosticism doesn't mean "not being sure" or "ignorant." It means "doesn't know." It's quite a bit more firm than just not being sure. He said he believes in karma and/or a higher power, both of which are metaphysical truth claims. It is unknown whether or not these are true, as there is simply no evidence to support those claims. Those who make a truth claim must be prepared to back it up with evidence, otherwise our entire system of reason is meaningless.

Of course, if there is evidece, I'd love to see it.

Deoial · 12-05-2008, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by Hraesvelg

What makes you feel that way, Deoial?

well ive looked into a few religions (there a ton out there i didnt want to get carried away) and the closest things to what i feel is correct at least for me is a combination of Wicca and Buddhism, mostly because of the respect for all living things and all things not living as well. and the whole karma/energy of the universe just seems about right, ever seen the movie The Secret?

**Vasu** · 12-05-2008, 04:23 PM

Well, I know I said "soon enough" but I was busy. Busy, I tell you!

Right:

1. For people who voted "many gods" and "personal god":

When a theory is proposed, one needs to offer evidence to back it up. Just because there is no proof against your theory, doesn't make it true. For example, there's Russell's Teapot:

Quote:

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

Next, for those who say that the fact that the universe exists is itself proof of a God, the answer, is that it might be. But it is most certainly not proof of a personal God. Why couldn't it just be some sort of primal energy/force, mindless "thing" as it were that created the universe? Why a living, benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient creature? In other words, why couldn't it be an impersonal God? I'll deal with that later.

Next, for those who think that this personal god/gods are described by religion: I find it really amazing that most religions have contradictions among themselves, and yet everybody manages to conveniently ignore them and go on with life. You do not need a God for some sort of spiritual "reassurance". How you find reassurance from something/someone that might (with a very small probability, I might add) exist.

You do not need a God to be moral. If it is the fear of God that drives you to be good, then it's obvious that if God said "It's okay to have extramarital sex, it's okay to rape everyone." then you wouldn't find anything wrong with it. I, on the other hand, would. My code of morality is based on what is permissible by my mind, while yours is run by what is permitted by your God. For all those who think that atheists are immoral, then let me kindly point out, that I am a hell lot more moral than the Old Testament god.

2. For those who voted "Impersonal God"

I can understand your choice a lot more, because I can see the need to formulate an explanation for the existence of the universe. However, this is a rather redundant position, because it begs the question "What created the impersonal god?" Sort of like a "It's turtles all the way down." argument.

3. For those who voted for any of the other two:

I share your opinion, what more can I say?

Just remember, that there might be a god. We can't say for sure.

**Hraesvelg** · 12-05-2008, 04:34 PM

Ha! Both Russell's Teapot and "turtles all the way down." What more is there to say?

**Manzcar** · 12-05-2008, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Vasu

Next, for those who think that this personal god/gods are described by religion: I find it really amazing that most religions have contradictions among themselves, and yet everybody manages to conveniently ignore them and go on with life. You do not need a God for some sort of spiritual "reassurance". How you find reassurance from something/someone that might (with a very small probability, I might add) exist.

You do not need a God to be moral. If it is the fear of God that drives you to be good, then it's obvious that if God said "It's okay to have extramarital sex, it's okay to rape everyone." then you wouldn't find anything wrong with it. I, on the other hand, would. My code of morality is based on what is permissible by my mind, while yours is run by what is permitted by your God. For all those who think that atheists are immoral, then let me kindly point out, that I am a hell lot more moral than the Old Testament god.

what contradictions you make a statement but do not use facts to back up your statement.

If my understanding you correctly if it is okay in your mind to do what you want than it is moral? then in your mind if rape was okay and moral than it would be okay and moral right.

How was he immoral?

**Vasu** · 12-06-2008, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Manzcar

what contradictions you make a statement but do not use facts to back up your statement.

If my understanding you correctly if it is okay in your mind to do what you want than it is moral? then in your mind if rape was okay and moral than it would be okay and moral right.

How was he immoral?

Point conceded, only because I'm not well versed enough in christianity to point them out. I'll be happy to provide stuff from my own religion if you want.

I can throw that question right back at you. If God said it was okay to rape, would you? I think not. Why not? Because of your mind.

Get ready for quotes:

The God was immoral because:

He had no "religious tolerance" and encouraged the killing of those who dodn't follow him.

Quote:

While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died.

(Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)

More encouragement of war, and plunder:

Quote:

"Next we headed for the land of Bashan, where King Og and his army attacked us at Edrei. But the LORD told me, 'Do not be afraid of him, for I have given you victory over Og and his army, giving you his entire land. Treat him just as you treated King Sihon of the Amorites, who ruled in Heshbon.' So the LORD our God handed King Og and all his people over to us, and we killed them all. We conquered all sixty of his towns, the entire Argob region in his kingdom of Bashan. These were all fortified cities with high walls and barred gates. We also took many unwalled villages at the same time. We completely destroyed the kingdom of Bashan, just as we had destroyed King Sihon of Heshbon. We destroyed all the people in every town we conquered â€“ men, women, and children alike. But we kept all the livestock for ourselves and took plunder from all the towns."

(Deuteronomy 3:1-7 NLT)

Promise of sexual satisfaction:

Quote:

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.

(Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Taking of girls as war trophies:

Quote:

And the LORD said to Moses, 'You and Eleazar the priest and the family leaders of each tribe are to make a list of all the plunder taken in the battle, including the people and animals. Then divide the plunder into two parts, and give half to the men who fought the battle and half to the rest of the people. But first give the LORD his share of the captives, cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats that belong to the army. Set apart one out of every five hundred as the LORD's share. Give this share of their half to Eleazar the priest as an offering to the LORD. Also take one of every fifty of the captives, cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats in the half that belongs to the people of Israel. Give this share to the Levites in charge of maintaining the LORD's Tabernacle.' So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses. The plunder remaining from the spoils that the fighting men had taken totaled 675,000 sheep, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys, and 32,000 young girls.

(Numbers 31:25-35 NLT)

Racism:

Quote:

When the Lord has pity on Jacob and again chooses Israel and settles them on their own soil, the aliens will join them and be counted with the house of Jacob. The house of Israel will take them and bring them along to its place, and possess them as male and female slaves on the Lord's soil, making captives of its captors and ruling over its oppressors.

(Isaiah 14:1-2 NAB)